I can't see where you'd be behind in your OODA loop and they may only be minimally ahead on the orient portion of theirs. Chances are that they already were though.

HK brought up a great point.

If they are ahead in the orientation that means they are miles ahead in the Observe portion. minimally ahead in the second step of that cycle is more than I want to give up in any altercation.

The "O.O.D.A." cycle, or "loop" as its phrased now was used by Col. Boyd to show the cycle of fighter pilots. There decisions have to be made in fractions of a second. If you are behind in two steps of the cycle, you will probably not catch up. If a "bad guy" has the intention of staging an offensive, you are already behind in step 1. If he has you pegged in step 2. then he the initiative. The white triangle gives him the upper hand in his orientation of his shot placement, while you are still observing. That little triangle cuts his reaction time down temendeously, based strictly of course, on his eyes focusing on the distinct pattern known by most people as a feature of the police uniform. This little fraction of time given away is a huge advantage when the officer is still processing information gathered during the Observation stage and trying to sort through all the visual information for his Decision to shoot/no shoot, and shot placement.

This was discussed by Ken Goode and James Williams at a Surefire Institute seminar back in 06. Goode also wrote a blog on his interpretation of the O.O.D.A. cycle as applied to Special Operations fire fights long before it was attached to Law Enforcent. Like I stated before, the cycle originally measured hundreths of a second, not seconds, therefore ANY advantage in the cycle, no matter how minute, can be devestating in the outcome. I, personally, like to follow the mantra, " Take everything, and give them nothing". Not that it always works or is even plausable, but I try.

HK did bring a good point, but the studies have shown that a distinctive eye-catching target will draw more shots to it, as opposed to a silouette target...even during high stress. Im not an expert by any means on the subject, but it seems to fall into the same theory that Lt. Col. Grossman discusses in his book, "On Killing", when he talks about the soldiers being conditioned to shoot "man" shaped pop-ups as opposed to bullseyes. If you are being conditioned to shoot like that, as the article suggests the bad guys are doing, then the little white triangle is far more than just a minimal margin in the cycle.

My question is "Who the hell's been hangin out with the gang-bangers to get this sort of intel?"

The point I was trying to make is that the OODA loop isn't going to be truly effected by this. This is all about subconscious tendencies to shoot at a little white triangle vs. the bangers being "conditioned" to shoot there.

Personally, I think they may be reduced in their Act phase, just because they're looking for a sight picture on that triangle (which should be moving) while you're putting every round you have on center of mass.

As to your question; Undercover officers.

I see your point...But, anything that gives you an advantage, or puts you at a disadvantage will truly affect the cycle because the cycle is constatnt and begins and ends on several different planes and with a miriad of information simultaneously. From the moment that the officer enters into the scenario, till he/she is being debriefed after the fact.

Your stance was the same one a few guys took at the siminar. They didnt believe that something that insignificant would be a major influence on the cycle. Ken Goode uses Col. Boyds model of the loop and facors in everything from a subjects upbringing and social influences to what he/she had for breakfast.

Im talking specifically about the information that was given in this topic, and how it would influence the cycle under these circumstances. IF the gangbangers are actually "training" for this type of shooting then they will have a huge advantage,( in the cycle), based on the studies done by the Institute. On the other hand, the confusion of the little "bouncing" triangle would affect the "Action" phase as you suggested. But as you suggested, it will affect something in the cycle, for or against someone.

Im for taking the target away, just to error on the side of caution.

Undercover officers...makes sense but I figured if that was the source there would be more to work with other than "speculation".

But...This is all just my opinion and has been wrong before. Not trying to win the hearts and minds of anyone, Ive just had this disscussion before...

I wont even pretend to know what this OODT cycle is but reading this thread a couple of items stand out in my mind. The first is the shoot or no shoot, the LEO has to think about it but the banger does not. Hell he does not care and has allready made up his mind when he got out of bed in the morning. He does not care if its a bystander or the impact zone behind his target ect. The second point or question is that phrase "Instinctive shooting" I was trained for years with the weaver stance or mods of but after training with those mad Britts I learned to train 98% instinctive and 2% with a site picture. Do they even stress or train LEOs to forget the sites and you will be in the kill zone every time not to mention the time lost getting a site picture. Just my 2

Hey dyank: First off, look up the OODA loop on wikipedia...Its great info to put a little research into, especially if you cary a weapon for a living.

Second: I took an advanced auto-pistol course a few years ago and they stressed the reaction shooting. My last dept. had an entire qualification on reaction shooting. It amazed me how many "seasoned" officers couldnt even hit the 14" round steel target we were using. As I have seen, most shooters will inherently find a "rythm" and begin making consecutive hits after a few shots. I use reaction shooting when I "run and gun", which is about 90% of my range training since I dont like being a stationary target.

I also put the ghost ring rear site on my G17 in order to get a faster sight picture when I do use the sights.

Wow.

I actually find it hard to believe that anyone that would call themselves a shooter in the industry, or for that matter, any current LEO, would not know anything at all about the OODA loop, or Colonel Boyd. Where are you people training?

I had a conversation not long ago with another guy in the industry and I made reference to a quote from the book On Combat. The guy looked at me and said, "Who wrote that? I have never heard of it."

Oooook...

OldSoldier, go easy dude. Im not a LEO and have never been much of a scholar but will check out in more detail OODA. As far as where I trained it was in the U.K. and I will leave it at that. What about my question? Do they stress as you call it in the States "Reaction" shooting?
The Triangle, well in simple words "A No Brianer" Dark alley-white triangle.