NTOA has a lot of influence here in TX, but no one can mandate anything here except TCLEOSE. Even the feds have had headaches trying to "move in" on TX standard of training. The thing is...Tx mandates a lot more than most states and makes it a point to go above and beyond what most states will ever require. With a Tx lincense, you can go almost directly into another state agency with mimmun cross testing, provided that you are within a certain seperation time frame...not all states, but most.

HW3- I have not looked into that yet. I am just starting the brainstorming on this and Id like to have a model to take to admin with sucess stories if possible before I even get close to suggesting such a thing. Im sure our Sheriff's office would head it up since we are the top LE authority in the county here in TX. It would probably cover several counties and be under "task force" guidelines since a lot of surrounding counties dont have any kind of tac team to call on.

I think this could start a model for other counties and take a lot of burden off the FBI-HRT at least here in TX. If we had a real storm here, it would take the closest HRT unit about 2 hrs to get here. Hostage taking is picking up in the world again and we need a deterent to such things. If the bad guys knew a "Spec Ops" police unit was operating anywhere near them, they would leave their plans in the "fantasy" world.

Also, we all know what the usual outcome is for a susccessful HRT mission. It usually means a lot of bodybags for the bad guys. No one agency wants that responsibility so most SWAT teams dont train for such outcomes. All local counties need a group of guys that have several agencies involved that can bear the brunt of such a mission if the need arise, and have guys that are High Speed enough to cary out such a mission. I would think that the requirements to join that unit would be about the same as FBI, or DELTA would cary. 100% on all shooting...no exception. Stout PT requirements...and such. It would have to be manned by the LE 1%ers in the area.

I will look into the info you guys have given and I REALLY appreciate the positive input. If there is some negative I need that too. Got to stay realistic here and there is always some negatives.

Thanks,
ZW

hardknocks wrote:

relm wrote: It's an effective concept. As far as training goes, we had FBI Instructors very eager to train officers and that was no cost to the officers/agencies. Been out of the LE loop for a day or two...I knew NTOA had recommended a minimum standard for special teams...but i am pretty sure NTOA can't make anything mandatory You mean their blue ribbon council? They tried to set standards and basically monopolize the only training that would be recognized would be through them.

"The NTOA acknowledges that these written standards remove some of the flexibility afforded by guidelines, and as a result, may create some degree of consternation."

NTOA states number of training hours, min number of manpower for ops, etc. Call it guidelines, call it mandates, standards whatever but see how fast an agency settles out of court when they don't meet the standards and get sued under Canton V Harris/failure to train.

Chaos, what county are you in?

To TDT1: You apparently have not seen the small town depts Ive had the displeasure of working for. My first agency kept a SWAT that only trained once a month for 4-6 hrs, and all that covered was target shooting, and that was on there own time....no OT for that. And...They were not approved for the OT to serve HR warrants for Narcotics. Usually 3-4 Narcs and 2 uniforms served all HR warrants. Talk about liability. As a patrolman I had more door kicking time than most of the senior SWAT officers cause I trained on my own dime twice a week and PTed my ass off getting ready for SWAT quals. I do want the blessing of all professional entities involved in this aspect of my idea. Thats the tricky part.

To O+: Smith Co.

Chaoscombat I fully understand, thats why NTOA is pushing the regional team concept so much. Sadly manpower and money are not an affirmative defense and case law has been set on that. What you are describing is exactly the reason the standards were put forth to make agencies accountable. The sad truth is that many agencies do what you are describing. My agency did not come around to training standards until a nearby PD was sued, thats usually how it works with them. We were able to get more grant funding the bigger we got and more operations we did and more area we covered (we are a larger county team but the same can be done with a regional team)

My old dept. was sued 3 times while I was with them....none of my doing thank God....and never flinched. They have a budget in place for settlements just so they can do what they want. They refuse to let any other dept. have anything to do with the Tac Team. They are the county seat in the county and think they are movie stars or something. It is dangerously rediculous there....hence my departure.

Im gonna have to take all this into account with such a team I know. Since there is a large city SWAT and a large Co. SWAT there really is no need for a MJ SWAT, but for the crucial CT missions that may...or may not...occur it would be a new precident to have a mix of both very capable team's best guys to serve on a SRT that covers several counties and very specifically trained for such incidents should the need arise. Keep is low key and have it fall under a "task force" and let the NTOA and FBI help with quals and mandates. I think the NTOA is probably going to be trumped by the FBI HRT on what should be mandated for such an organization.

I know its a far fetched idea, but so was SWAT for small towns at one time. I think each region should have a team that could step up and do what the Feds do...to an extent...and alleviate some of the responsibility. Also the response time would be 3 times faster if is was regional. Im just brainstrorming right now and trying to get a realistic view from the professionals. I hope Im not stepping on any Fed toes here. I have the upmost respect for those guys and would hope that my attempt at emmulating them would be taken as a compliment and not an insult.

That said, If any of you guys are associated with the FBI HRT, or DELTA, or SAS or any other High Speed CT entity please let me know your thoughts on trying to train and equip a team locally. If its just too much for a local unit to handle please let me know your reasons and thoughts on that.

Remember this is all just an idea and a "what if" of sorts so dont bring the Wrath of God down on me, Im just thinking out loud and looking for some professional insight on this.

Thanks guys.

Thands .....But, what we have are two well trained and established SWAT teams.

What Im thinking about is combining the best of the best to form a real counter terrorist team for HR and CT missions.

My fantasy is that the regular SWATers handle the regular warrant service, baracaded subject etc. But the really crucial incidents, such as an infiltrated daycare, effed up bank robbery with hostages, or the old 70's style, " realease our brother in prison or we start shooting people" type of things.

I am seeing a rise in such activities being reported in Europe. Not any actual incidents yet...but they are finding these guys before they act...I have friends overseas.

Id like to take a multijurisdictional team and train especially for such incidents. Sort of like a small scale "Rainbow Six" if you will. Just wondering if this idea has been played with before.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. If this is unrealistic tell me why you think so and give me examples when appropiate or available. I want the good, the bad, and the WTF are you thinking...lol.


WTF?

I'll bite.

Let me get this right, you want the best of the best SWAT team, creme de La creme, for your area?

You want to take the best from the best even though you have only 8 years experience as LEO and that is, my friend, no where enough to even get on an established SWAT team.

You need to get a good grip on basic cop skills before you get all high speed and thinking how SWAT should be.

I read your profile and the 2 years providing security for Katrina does not equal or compare security in Iraq or A-stan or other places not friendly.

Take a few steps back. Breath. Look around and get some SA.

There are many people here who are more than happy and qualified to help you.

You have friends overseas. No ? So do I. Hell, I am overseas most of the time. You having friends overseas and me being overseas are not comparable.

Are your friends working in Intel and possibly violating OPSEC by communicating to you trends and patterns?

Dial it down. Be honest.

I understand what you are saying some agencies get sued repeatedly and don't seem to care. My agency was the same for the first 10 years of my career, we are a large agency 500+ and get sued all the time and they did not change, we had an in custody death huge publicity, federal lawsuit and shelled out huge money. Then change could not come fast enough. Sooner or later they will change it just takes a big enough suit.

My point with this is I spend a lot of time the last 16+ years in court defending my officers training, our policies and their actions, if you do it right to start things go easier.

As far as your task force idea we do it through the USMS and have monthly training on top of SWAT training, they make sure we meet standards. I can tell you from training with and sharing info from teams in your state, most especially Dallas they are very aware of NTOA standards as is the FBI and they exceed them. TTPOA in your state adopted NTOA standards some time back. Now is everyone in TX doing it Im sure not but if you are setting this up as a best of the best as outlined and you want funding and the blessing from fed agencies you need solid policy, training and structure. Having been down the road you are on the last thing you want is a suit over training or standards, they will find some X SWAT guru from somwhere to testify against your team and how you did not know and everything you did was wrong. There was a suit in my state regarding a shooting death on a dope hit, made national news, the ofc was charged and cleared but the civil suit just started, during the case they had the lead tactics instructor from the state academy testify against the ofc and the agency. National stanards were brought into play, I think you get my point I just hate to see well intedned operators get their nuts in a vice over something so preventable.